SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
News today of a major shakeup in Washington. Lonnie G. Bunch III, the Smithsonian secretary, announced he is retiring after 38 years of service with the institution. He will step down at the end of the year. The decision comes at a moment of intense pressure on the Smithsonian from the Trump administration. Bunch once told NPR he didn't know he'd end up working at the Smithsonian after his first visit as a child, but he knew it was a place of possibility. He's headed the organization since 2019 and is the first historian and the first African American to do so. Secretary Bunch joins me now. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
LONNIE G BUNCH III: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
DETROW: Why leave now?
BUNCH: Because I'm old as dirt.
(LAUGHTER)
BUNCH: The reality is that after 38 years, I've been able to accomplish so much. I've learned so much. I've built such great relationships. And now I want to make sure that I have time to write, to think, but really to bore my grandkids to death, and now's the moment to do it.
DETROW: I want to take the long view with you. I want to talk big picture about your career, but I do have to talk about this current moment. The Smithsonian has been a frequent target of criticism by President Trump. How much did that play into this decision?
BUNCH: Not at all. In fact, for me, the issue is always trying to defend the Smithsonian, to learn from criticism wherever it comes, but to make sure that, one, the independence of the Smithsonian is protected, that, two, the Smithsonian is always driven by scholarship, by reflection, by thoughtfulness, and that ultimately my goal is to always ensure that the thousands of people who work for the Smithsonian, the thousands of public servants get the sort of support they need for the amazing work that the institution has done for 180 years.
DETROW: I think a lot of people who love the Smithsonian are worried about all those things you just mentioned. They're worried about the independence going forward, and they're worried about the decision-making and why it's being made. I will just read - I could read many, many, many quotes. I will read one from about a year ago from President Trump. (Reading) The Smithsonian is out of control, where everything discussed is how horrible our country is, how bad slavery was and how unaccomplished the downtrodden have been. Nothing about success, nothing about brightness, nothing about the future.
Going forward, how does the Smithsonian maintain its independence?
BUNCH: Well, I mean, first of all, remember, it's important to realize that the Smithsonian celebrates and loves America, that the work we do explains the complexity of America. And I believe very strongly that Americans are a brave people. And if they're brave enough to sort of win wars and overcome depression, they're brave enough to face their history - because what you're doing is you're not exploring negative history. What you're saying is America has been a work in progress, and that, in essence, we are really aspirational. And the great strength of a nation is that over time, it continues to improve itself. And that's why it's important to understand what the challenges were, but also how America has evolved. So I think it's important to recognize that the independence of the Smithsonian is essential. It gets supported by Congress, by the general public, by amazing donors. And we will just continue to articulate how important it is to have an independent Smithsonian.
DETROW: Is the person who's going to replace you, whoever that may be, are they going to be as well-equipped as you've been? - because you have faced a lot of pressure and you have, by and large, faced it down. What - are you worried that the next person is not going to be able to do that as well?
BUNCH: Not really. In some ways, I take great pride in the Smithsonian and the staff that's there. You know, I may get a lot of attention, but it's really working with gifted people at the Smithsonian to help me navigate and to maneuver. And I think that the Smithsonian, whoever comes in, will work with a gifted board of trustees and will continue to really fight the fight that needs to be fought to protect the independence of the Smithsonian. I am bullish on the Smithsonian.
DETROW: One more question about this. When you have had meetings with Congress, when you have had meetings with the administration, what is your response when they say telling the full picture of American history is activism? - because that's the word that keeps coming up, activism.
BUNCH: Yeah. You know, for me, it's not activism. It's just telling a full, nuanced, complex history, that America is a place that is ripe with complexity and ambiguity as well as ripe with patriotism and triumphs. So I think the key is to see the fullness of the story. It's kind of like saying, you know, you went to your doctor. You've got your physical, and you only want to know half of what they found out.
DETROW: Well, I think a lot of people probably would want to only know the positives, but, yeah. I mean, one question I want to ask about is the National Museum of African American History and Culture. You played such a key part in getting that up off the ground. Is there one specific thing you're most proud of with that museum?
BUNCH: You know what I'm proud of? I'm proud of the fact that America and the Smithsonian are the only places that can craft a museum like that, that there were thousands of people, some who worked on the museum, some who donated collections, some who donated money, but basically, it really was this sort of opportunity to cross political lines, racial lines. So I'm unbelievably proud of America and the Smithsonian to be able to craft that museum.
DETROW: And you don't have any worries about that particular museum over the next two years, given the strain of criticism and pressure that we're seeing?
BUNCH: You know, I think that the fact that that museum is there - and it will be there forever. It will always tell those stories of triumph and resiliency, as well as difficult moments. So I believe very strongly that people will rally round the Smithsonian rally round that museum because it is one of the most well-visited museums in the world now, and people around the world support it, and I think they will be there to support the institution, no matter what.
DETROW: You're a historian. How do you imagine history will tell this moment in time, particularly when it comes to how this country talks and thinks about itself?
BUNCH: Well, I think that this is a moment that is really sort of interesting. I've always said, I wish I was a historian 30 years from now writing about it because it's going to be very fascinating. It's going to really get to core issues of identity, core issues of executive power, core issues of balance of power. And so I think that this is really going to be one of those periods that people are going to study and write about for decades.
DETROW: You're going to be a private citizen in January, and I'm wondering what aspect of the Smithsonian you are most looking forward to visiting just off the clock on your own, as a historian, as somebody who likes the museum.
BUNCH: Well, I think that obviously, every time I go into the African American Museum or the American Museum of History, that I see something new. I'm also looking forward, though, to spending time at the place that I began my career, the Air and Space Museum, and it really has been - become a sort of a new birth, if you will, of the Air and Space Museum. So I'm going to always be a museum geek going to see exhibitions throughout the Smithsonian. I can't wait.
DETROW: If your successor comes with you on one of those trips, any advice that you would offer him or her as you look at the Apollo 11 Lander or anything else in there?
BUNCH: You know, I would say, take a look at the wonders of the Smithsonian - the wonders of the Smithsonian that captured the amazing wonders of the world. And so, remember, that's your job - to capture those wonders, to make those accessible and to educate the public.
DETROW: I've been talking to Lonnie G. Bunch III. He announced today he is stepping down as secretary of the Smithsonian Institution. Thank you so much.
BUNCH: My great pleasure. Thank you.
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